Comments on: Teachers, Dentists and Sex

By: Simon

Simon — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 01:40:11 +0000

Jeremy is this thread dead?

By: Jeremy Stangroom

Jeremy Stangroom — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 19:14:31 +0000

Yes, I agree about the ‘in loco parentis’ point: that certainly applies if the child is 15 in the UK.

In that sense, I agree that the teacher has behaved badly.

Cool that we agree about most of the other stuff!

By: rebeccahumes

rebeccahumes — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 19:02:35 +0000

In reply to your question, no I do not think prison is appropriate at all! I do think that people abuse eachother’s trust in so many ways, we are probably all guilty here. Human beings do use their power to get what they want, including sexually. The question seems to be whether some relationships are more of a breach of trust than others. A parent of a 15 year old in this country is responsible for their child’s welfare and therefore has a huge amount of power over their son or daughter, financially, emotionally and intellectually. When handing over this responsibility to a teacher, who becomes ‘in loco parentis’ the parents will expect certain standards of behaviour to be maintained. The teacher has breached this trust, breached the trust of the parents. Looked at this way the crime has been committed against the parents/carers. The girl, presumably will have a view on this matter when she is older that might be very different to the one she holds now. Apart from that I don’t think we can condemn either the teacher or the girl morally. We can only guess at the damage done.
I think, in essence I agree with you Jeremy.

By: Jeremy Stangroom

Jeremy Stangroom — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 18:17:14 +0000

Hey Rebecca

You are almost suggesting that this woman is damaging the girl’s future relationships irrevocably by setting her up for disappointment with men.

Well again, I’d say that this is to assume that teacher is active and the pupil passive. My suggestion is that this is not obviously the case here, and that it isn’t always the case, generally speaking.

The situation you describe is different, I think. I would also say that your teacher behaved immorally. But I think there’s more to be said about it:

a) Do you think he deserved to go to prison (because under current UK laws he would – assuming he was convicted, etc)?

b) Do you think that his behaviour was worse than say a man who uses a woman’s fear of being alone in order to elicit sexual favours from her (which I’d think was fairly common amongst adults)?

My general point isn’t that people behave well when they have relationships with much younger people (though in the particular case of the female teacher and her young girl lover, I’m not inclined to think there’s too much that is wrong). It is rather that they don’t necessarily behave any less well than other people involved in different kinds of sexual encounters, with different dynamics, etc.

By: rebeccahumes

rebeccahumes — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 18:08:06 +0000

An encounter with a spotty oik is something easily forgotten as it is likely to be over in a very short time. Being filmed on a mobile is almost normal these days!You are almost suggesting that this woman is damaging the girl’s future relationships irrevocably by setting her up for disappointment with men.
I personally had a relationship with a teacher when I was 16 and he was 27. He pushed for the relationship and I succumbed. That is how I look at it. It wasn’t bad but it stunted my development at that stage as I missed out on meeting other young immature people and had to make do with his older friends and outlook on the world. I was susceptable to this as I was naive and inexperienced. I believe what he did was wrong although he is agood person generally. It is a pity I did not meet him later in life and we could have had a more equal relationship, although we are now internet pals years later. Perhaps this has coloured my views on this type of relationship.

By: Jeremy Stangroom

Jeremy Stangroom — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:24:19 +0000

Okay, but the assumption here is still that there was something wrong about what happened between the girl and the teacher. That isn’t obviously the case. Consider:

1. If it had occurred in Germany, then the girl’s age would not have been an issue;

2. The inequality in the teacher-pupil relationship doesn’t seem to be a factor here, since the girl pushed for the relationship to become sexual;

3. The teacher and the girl are still in love, and they intend to see each other once the teacher is released from jail;

Okay, I realise this stuff has to be balanced against the whole teacher thing (I do think it’s on the whole probably not a good idea for teachers to shag their pupils), but nevertheless it’s not clear that the moral calculus comes out against this relationship.

It seems to me that it’s a lot better that your first sexual experience be with an older person you love, and who loves you, than with some spotty oik, who doesn’t give a damn about you, and who will probably video your sexual encounter on his mobile phone, and show all his mates!

By: rebeccahumes

rebeccahumes — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 19:27:05 +0000

I would have to agree that age can evoke stereotypes too. the thing that puzzles me the most is how the teacher was ever employed in the first place. Her vulnerability is clear but I suspect she maybe lacked a certain amount of social intelligence and restraint too. From my perspective though, she is very very young and should be guided by her (older) peers into a different type of occupation. I feel sorry for her more than I want to condemn her although she has to take responsibility for her actions. She is something of a liability I would think to any future employer.
I am beginning to see that ‘predatory’ may not be the right word for this woman and ‘weak’ or ‘fragile’ might be a better word. She has of course let her school down badly and her fellow teachers.
The randy dentist fits more of a common stereotype I think, one that is likely to be excused for his actions.

By: Jeremy Stangroom

Jeremy Stangroom — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 18:21:14 +0000

Rebecca

But if there’s a risk of relying on stereotypes here doesn’t that also apply to the issue of age?

There seems to be an assumption that the predator must be the older person. But that doesn’t seem to me to be a matter that is beyond doubt.

For example, in the case we’re discussing here, even the prosecution accepted that it was the younger girl who pressed for the relationship to become sexual. If that’s the case, it seems a stretch to think that the female teacher is every bit as predatory as the dentist.

By: rebeccahumes

rebeccahumes — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 17:43:22 +0000

I really think that there is a risk of these arguments reverting to stereotypical thought processes. So often we think of sexual ‘predators’ as being male. Amos talks about a soldier and immediately we think of a male. There seems to be an assumption that sexual abuse is usually conferred to a younger person by a male. Recent news stories are changing this view and people are even more terrified now than ever. To reflect this terror in the general population even stricter laws are being brought in regarding care of the vulnerable. I read recently there is some consideration being given to the idea of men being vetted before a relationship is undertaken. once again the assumption is that men are not to be trusted.
I suppose that what I am saying is that the female teacher is every bit as predatory as the dentist even though the law takes a harder line on her actions.

By: Jeremy Stangroom

Jeremy Stangroom — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:39:18 +0000

Yes. 13 years old – I begin to get a little nervous (even with consent, etc). But… if a 13 year old is the sexual aggressor, it’s going to mitigate culpability.